So on my last post, Trevor left a comment asking:
"What qualifies those girls in "Altruists" as 'super generic'?"
I planned on making a just a quick explanation as an extra on some bigger post with more drawings, but totally got caught up with the question and came up with a lot of ideas about "generic" drawings (specifically of girls). Here are the drawings he was asking about:
And here are some designs I did that I am much less embarrassed to show:
Also, I tried to explain more on my outlook of the word "generic" in some little drawings, which I'll post below (its more fun this way).
Now here is some less fun stuff...more theories on (dun dun DUNNN!!!)...
GENERIC!!!!!!!!
Disclaimer: these are rambling thoughts written quite late at night.
1. What makes a drawing "generic"? There are two different ways to look at the word generic but I'll talk about that later. When cartoonists talk about a generic girl design, I believe it usually refers to the "cute" equation. A generic girl design generally has a big cranium, large eyes, a small upturned nose, and youthful feminine lips. Her face is rounded and nothing is too prominent. Disney princesses are pretty generic (don't get mad at me yet, I am a HUGE fan of Disney movies and can watch 'Sleeping Beauty' 6 times in a row). Snow White may have short hair and a rounder face than Cinderella, but logically you must admit that they are similar, and they seem to set the standard for "cartoon girl beauty." (On another note, Japan has it's own standard for cartoon girl beauty as anyone can see)
2. Where did this come from? My impression is that there are many advantages to using a generic girl design in cartoons. First of all, girl characters are often props rather than REAL characters. Someone for the dashing hero to rescue, someone to sing some cute songs, or the lovely prize who is being fought over by suitors. I personally don't have a problem with this, although I'd like to see more of a variety of girl designs just to spice it up. And I don't mean taking the generic girl design and making her nose slightly less upturned and tiny, or making her chin slightly longer, or giving her a "weird" hairdo.
3. Another reason that generic girls are common- they are pretty and appealing, and everyone likes that. One glance at the cherubic faces of Snow White or Cinderella or Ariel and you know that they are good and sweet. You instantly root for them. Boys AND girls like pretty girls, and the generic cartoon standard is based on what most people find pretty in real life (at least thats how it seems to me). By making girl characters less generic you may risk having to work harder to make the character likable (don't get me started on the now generic "cartoon girl personalities" that can be found everywhere). ANOTHER DISCLAIMER. I know someone is gonna misread this and think that I am against "pretty" or some silly thing. I'm certainly not, I wanted to be Briar Rose as a kid and still do. But I also think there is a place in cartoons for girls who's designs are more specific, just like the real girls in our lives that we know and love.
4. Another reason that generic girl designs are common- Animating is hard. Animating girls is really hard...and trying to animate a girl with specific features must be really REALLY hard.
5. One more idea...the word "generic" can be looked at the way I've described above, but some artists can be unique and "generic" at the same time. You could argue that Kiraz, Sokol, and Frazetta all have a "generic" girl type that they draw quite often....but the drawings are only generic because the artist draws a similar design repeatedly- compare any of their girls to the generic girl I have been talking about and there is nothing boring about them. Check out their gorgeous girls (I die happily inside when I look at these):
Kiraz
Sokol
Frazetta (his paintings break my heart...but in a good way)I may sound like I have been trash talking anything generic, but in this case it's very different. Frazetta, Kiraz, and Sokol may have a preference for how they draw their girls, but they are each so monumentally amazing at drawing that it doesn't matter. The drawings are beautiful in so many ways that the design of the girl is practically inconsequential. It's drawings like these that make me realize that I DEPEND on trying to draw different kind of faces and bodies all the time...It's almost as though I haven't earned the right to even consider settling and having a basic girl design that I can fall back on. I hope someday I can have an ounce of the uniqueness and skill these artists have. Does any of this make sense??
Wow, if you got through all that, then you must be a true pal 'o mine. Thanks for sitting through "Uncle Katie's Theory Corner." I hope lots of people have their own ideas, and that no one thinks I'm being insulting or presumptuous.
AND DON'T FORGET!!!!
Find out what happens to Skadi and the hapless maiden on Dumm Comics!
Goodnight!
42 comments:
This is my first comment on your blog but I've been following it for a while - and always enjoyed it.
I just wanted to say, that I really liked reading about your perspective on this topic. I mostly agree with you, but I have to say: please keep the variety in your characters! They are so lovable and to me your art always represented a kind of heartwarming humor that I feel is very unique.
Haha this week's Skadi ruled.
Thanks for the lesson on telling special features apart; the before/after drawings of the 3 friends say it all.
Hi Katie
If Skadi was a generic girl, it would be lame. She needs to be unique, to move and be cartoony... Because she's like an action hero.
Generic girls should just be left as "props" like you say. Or if they have no personality... like in Naked Beach Frenzy... they were pretty generic because they were airheads, ha...
That was very thoughtful and enjoyable to read. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I like reading your theories.
Hi Katie! Thanks for writing this post, it was a good analysis and a really fun read! And no worries, you didn't come across negative at all; sounded like you put a lot of careful thought into this.
I looove your drawings and it's always great to get some insight into what you're thinking when you design.
cheers!
~Kt :)
Great post! You've managed to explain something which I've been wondering about for a while now. And don't worry, you make sense.
You should do more insightful posts. I know I'd love to read them!
When this post popped up on my google reader i thought it was a John K post! Then, i saw the drawings & was all, "HE DIDN'T DRAW THOSE, KATIE RICE DID. IS HE REALLY SAYING HE DREW THOSE? WHAT?" & then i saw that it was from your blog. Anyhow, great post & great general distinction & emphasis. Speaking of Skadi, You must have read Groo yeah? One of my favorite things about Argones' style is how he shows heads & limbs being cut off. The cuts are very clean & you can see the whole cross-section of meat. It is a stylistic element that is well worth lifting, if only to spread the Aragones aesthetic.
Hi, I made a google account just so I could say how much I enjoyed this post. I just read it twice all the way through and got a lot out of it. Thanks and keep it up.
Such a great, informative post!!!!!!!! yeah I'm pretty guilty of drawing my girls on the generic side. Large "baby" craniums and eyes, tiny upturn nose, young simple lips. But I'm urging myself and always practicing on getting more specific!
I forget who said this in the comments but yeah, the before and after drawings of Em and Christine pretty much explain it crystal clear
and-
i LOVVVVVVE Auntie Katie's Theory Corner!!!!!! This post is totally helpful, so many many thanks!! :D
Wow, Katie!
I'm glad I asked!
Ya know, you could teach professionally. The reason I say that is because three days ago I had no idea what you meant. Now I completely get it ( and I re-read this three times to make sure I did ).
You made a lot of sense and didn't get wrapped up in theories, nor did you make things difficult to understand.
At least now I know I was successful in designing my own 'generic girl', that of Twinklebelly. She was meant to remind one of Disney girls, with an overly cute aspect. I took the 'cute' cues from Preston Blair and the body cues from Disney.
Now, if I need to, I can be better equipped for designing something more unique and specific... all thanks to you... and, of course, practice!
You rock, Rice!
- trevor.
Wow! What a fantastic post. I don't get to draw as much as I'd like so at times I fall back on the same generic models. I'm sure that a combination real world observation, an insatiable appetite for all kinds of art and plenty of drawing might assuage a reliance on other people's generic recipes. I shall now go forth, draw things as they are and embrace the unique LOL. Thank you Katie!
haha i agree. i draw generic girls because its hard to draw generic girls and make them look good.
also animating girls IS super hard. ridiculously hard. Using a generic design makes it easier to animate more fluidly and not get caught up in details. You can't worry about details when you are busy trying to pose out a cartoony action or something.
Oy! Do I like looking at your wonderousnesses! yes. Yes I do.
Hey Katie,
AWESOME post. Yeesh, I realize the girls I'm drawing ARE generic lookin'. I'll have to read this post again when I draw some! Thank you VERY much!
I love your take on the 'John K-style lecture-post.'
I agree with you. It's only when lousy draftspeople (not the artists you mentioned) settle on one single way of drawing that really bugs me. I want to continually develop my style and skills. Being able to draw characters in new, refreshing ways is important, and I think you've captured that in your post.
Thanks Katie!
Katie, this is a terrific post. I really like the way you've been able to articulate your thoughts on this tricky subject. In fact, I decided to add some thoughts of my own on this topic over on my blog. Thanks for the inspiration!
(I hope you don't mind me posting one of your drawings to accompany the piece.)
I like it when you tell yer theories, you're very witty!
:D I'm just plain speechless. Your rock and your theory about unique vs. genericness rocks!!! A fun read and something that will make me think when drawing new character designs. Lookout bland and genericness, Katie is here to change people's perceptions of it forever with her unique perspective and feelings in her adorable, cute and funny drawings!!!
Eee, great post Katie!! I just can't get over how much I love your drawings (and the colours you use when you use colour)!!
Wow what an great post. Nice to read how you think on this.
You should make more posts about this.
I've visited your blog a few times before, just been too shy to post! Anyhow, this was really helpful to read! I'll probably be thinking about it everytime I draw now, and that's a good thing! :)
This was well worth your time & work to put it all down...it's great to read your thought processes(sp?)and theories. Especially when they are accompanied/illustrated by oodles of cool drawings! Eye strudel!
Based on longtime viewing of your work I have my own theories about your style-philosophy. You are tops in my book but I differ with some of your assertions-in a good way. At least I think so. In a nutshell I don't agree that your "generics" are truly as generic as you think they are, although I get what you're saying(you explain it very thoroughly).
One of these days I'll hash it out with you over an egg cream at Canters, I hope. : )
I really appreciate your thoughts on cartoons and art in general. Also love the free flowing style of your work. The way you throw down your drawings are great.
Hey I was watching El Tigre this morning, yeah the new Episodes are on at 6:30 a.m. on the eastcoast... lame still great, and I saw your little you painting a picture as Manny and Frida went through the girls to take to the dance. She was so cute, anyway I love the Skadi comic it reminds me of Groo, just with no words and a cute betty running about throwing herself in fray after fray with many different people, animals and what not. Please stay alive and healthy!
yeah, this really is such a great post!! And Jenny's right, your "generics" are some of the coolest generics I've ever seen... but still, I see what you mean, in comparision to your sooper awesome styley drawrrrrings!! Great post Katie!!
1.)Cool entry, this like a John K or Eddie F blog entry. Very instructive, explanatory and entertaining.
2.)Are you a fan of Sergio Aragones Groo The Conqueror? I noticed there's a touch of Segio's style in this comic, but I also see styles reminiscent to me of John Halas and his wife Joy Batchelor who did a cartoon called DoDo, The Kid From Outer Space.
this is the kind of advice you should charge money for!
Yeah this is something I like thinking about, but never thought of sharing. Thank you so much for the insight, Katie! I've always loved generic, but generic with appeal. Kinda what John has posted on his blog with the Hot Stuff comics. And you're right, I think artists have their own interesting views as to how they see generic and uniqueness and the combination of the two. I hope a lot of people take into consideration about this.
Thanks again, Katie!
Awesome! Thanks for all the advice, it's certainly valid points made! And I don't think you've offended most artists. But I don't think anyone should get "offended" by anything like this, even though I know some people can have a tendancy to be touchy about things.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this wonderful post.
This is just amazingly useful!
Really hoping deep in me that you will be able to do some more in the future...
Great post, I can only sit here and agree with everything. What I find funny about the whole generic vs specific debate is how it seems that everything is pushing for girls to be more generic in real life. I draw caricatures at Universal and I can't think of how many times young girls have asked me to just draw them "normal". I know there's self esteem issues involved there, but I can't help think if there's more too it than that.
Again this post was filled with all kinds of awesome. Hope to see more.
WOW, that is so well written. Ranting bloggers everywhere could learn a thing or two about composing proper essays that make sense.
So I've read all this, and it makes perfect sense to me, I also realize now that I am such a crappy artist, as I've fallen into the safe routine of generic characters (guys and girls).
You're also right about your friends, they are cute, but it's their unique features that make them cute and human and not plastic blad dolls.
thanks for taking the time to write this, It was so very helpful and eye-opening
cheers to you
your pal
-LFW
I say, keep the advice free! Free I say!
Holy, this is the definitive article on this subject. This post should be passed dowm from generation to genertion and made into a pamphlet for all animation studios to read and study.
Katie Rice, how does it feel to be a fuckin' rock star?
Must be fucking nice!
This is one post to keep in mind!
I always struggle with generic design because I also like the real cute generic designs if they are done as masterfully as Aurora for example. And that does not go simply for girls but for dogs (Pongo, Perdi, the Labrador), cats (Figaro) etc.
But in my own work I'd like to come up with more specific designs (observing people around me as well as actors and politicians) and as soon as it gets cartoony I come back to generic (sometimes on purpose, most of the time by accident). The worst thing may be that some of my friends prefer the generic stuff...
That's why I'm always in awe when seeing your doodles and designs.
I was very glad that you didn't denigrate generic per se. Keep up the good work!
J's right. Keep it free.
"Share what you've got, and you'll never want".
Somebody said that once.
- trevor.
Thanks guys! *Phew* I'm glad everyone was ok with the post and didn't think I was being a jerk.
Sean, Custom, lastangelman- Yeah I love Groo, and Sergio Aagones! A lot of people have been asking if he's an influence on Skadi- he definitely is! :)
Pete- Wow, thank you so much!! I'm flattered and flabbergasted!
Jenny- I'd love to have an egg cream with you!!! Lets go have cartoon theory and story night!
Pedro- loved what you said about "generic with appeal." I could do a whole other post on that subject!
Bill- yeah, I agree, that is a horribly sad thing that girls would ask to be drawn "normal." I could do another post on that too...
LFW- oh hush, there's nothing crappy about your art in any way. You're awesome and an inspiration!!! :D
Jorge- LOL!! Ha ha ha, the idea of a "cartoonist rock star" is pretty hilarious. Like I saunter into a hotel room and everyone's expecting me to smash stuff up but instead I just sit silently inside and never come out and go about my regular boring routine.
Thanks again everyone!
great post, katie! very insightful
I have a hard time digging myself out of the generic hole without the designs looking just plain ugly. (not saying yours are, just mine)
and when it comes to getting down a specific likeness, I never know what features to exaggerate.
Maybe you (or Kali, or John or anyone with design sensibilities I can trust) could touch on that a bit? thats probbaly one thats really hard to put into words though.
Katie, I absolutely love your specific girl designs. There are so many different kinds of beauty, and so many different girls! (Yea, I'm one of those guys who really love women). Awesome post, Katie! :D
I agree with what you're saying. When I'm drawing girls, I try to not stick with that same tried and true formula and work on getting the uniqueness of that person and what makes them look they way they do.
It just gets boring when all your pretty girls look the same, they're kind of robotish.
Sigh... ALL my drawings are generic.
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